From the ‘No $hit’ Department

Vikesrock wrote:

Sure, I am willing to admit there is a time to walk away from McCarthy, but after 10 games and a completely missed rookie season?
And yeah, take a chance. Throw caution to the wind. It takes risk to gain reward. The lukewarm comfy blanket is exactly what the Vikings have done...year after year after year. So far we have achieved 2 NFC championship losses since 2005. Maybe...just maybe we should try something else. You bet it's a high profile situation, but I would also like to point out that it's worth taking the shot at finding the right guy.

10 games is some sort of mantra now. You can walk away from a guy whenever you realize he isn't going to work out and the walking away is being done by Kevin O'Connell, which is why fans fighting each other about it seems silly. Or characterizing Kevin's moves as a "temper tantrum." Really? I'm not even a KOC fan but the guy is clearly trying to do what's necessary to win games now. That's what the franchise, the fans and the owners want. To say no, no, no, turn it into an open-ended qb development trial for a kid with very shaky on-field NFL priors, is just not happening in this world.

The one guy in that building who would have insisted on another year of JJM is gone. KAM was pushed out by KOC and Flores because they aren't interested in another year of offensive ineptitude (or KAM's drafting). The internal rifts were resolved when they went to the Wilves who, being in perpetual win-now mode, were an easy sell it seems. They'd just reupped KAM yet were willing to do an awkward late January firing and the whole interim g.m. thing. Then it was time for Kevin to acquire Kyler.

IMO this is all Kevin O'Connell, right down to the competition which is a performance to maintain his rep as a good guy, qb whispererer, Mr. Organizations Fail Young Quarterbacks didn't fail JJM, etc.

But for me, I don't care that it all happened. I'm not angry that JJM won't get his chance. Well maybe if Murray and Wentz both go down and he isn't traded he'll get back on the field. I hoped he'd work out but I was really doubtful when I looked at his college tape before we drafted him. Constant fastballs into tight windows that won't work in the NFL. A run heavy offense where he wasn't asked to throw a lot, with a great HC/surround. He did look good in hurry up in the national semi in the RoseBowl, so I had a little hope. But IMO he was overdrafted.

Picking a guy with his limitations at #10 (and honestly the 5th qb off the board) just put way too many expectations on him. He's shown a lack of maturity, inability to make certain throws, inaccuracy, a tendency to turn everything into a fastball, and most concerning, inability to process at speed in the pocket. He does do well in 2 minute drill. But so did Kyle Sloter. It's the other 58 minutes that are the problem.

Could he overcome all this and maybe be a backup someday? Sure. But the Vikings and NFL teams in general aren't running QB development camps, they are looking to win games now. Guys drafted lower can walk that path more easily because they don't come into the league and face big, early failures that mess with their heads. He should have been drafted late 2nd/early 3rd.

Kyler Murray is a highly talented guy who's thrown for over 20k yards and 120 tds for an organization that can charitably be called "dogshit", with bottom 5-epa level defenses the entire time. If Flores' D holds up and Murray's health does the same, this team that won 9 games with mostly crap QB play should win 12 games (or more). If the Vikings are going to find some magical top-5 level franchise QB, then Nolan Teasley is going to have to draft that guy in 2027 or beyond. Hope and cope all you want but JJ McCarthy ain't gonna be that guy. Sorry!! 😆

supafreak84 wrote:

I'm so over people using Jefferson as a reason to continue the "rent-a vet" cycle at quarterback. For what, so he can catch a dozen touchdowns while we don't make the playoffs or get bounced in round one because we lack a franchise quarterback? He is being well compensated for whatever his role and numbers end up being, and here is the bottom line, we've gotten no closer to winning in the playoffs with Jefferson posting elite numbers, so sorry if it hurts his feelings, but this was the direction that the franchise mapped out and its imperative to find out for sure whether McCarthy is that guy or not. There is no way anybody can say one way or the other after a measley, injury riddled 10 game sample.

I might add, I haven't ever seen this come from Jefferson or any of his representatives. It's always Flippy McFlipperson or some "anonymous" source. All I have ever heard from Jefferson is rock on and lets win!

supafreak84 wrote:

I'm so over people using Jefferson as a reason to continue the "rent-a vet" cycle at quarterback. For what, so he can catch a dozen touchdowns while we don't make the playoffs or get bounced in round one because we lack a franchise quarterback? He is being well compensated for whatever his role and numbers end up being, and here is the bottom line, we've gotten no closer to winning in the playoffs with Jefferson posting elite numbers, so sorry if it hurts his feelings, but this was the direction that the franchise mapped out and its imperative to find out for sure whether McCarthy is that guy or not. There is no way anybody can say one way or the other after a measley, injury riddled 10 game sample.

I think the idea is to give yourself the best chance to win, so if you happen to get a little lucky on the injury front, you can make a run. Yes, it is important to find out whether McCarthy is the guy. We got some info in that regard last season. We’ll get some more info in this year’s training camp and preseason, maybe even the regular season. We’ll see how he does. We all want him to do well. 

It’s even more important to win. See, it’s not just about Justin Jefferson. It’s about Darrisaw and O’Neill. It’s about Addison and Turner and Gink and Cashman and Flores and every other player and coach on the team. It’s about the fans, who’ve earned your best attempt at fielding a winning roster. 

The Vikings obviously felt it was in the best interest of all the above to bring in a veteran QB to compete with McCarthy. It was the right decision. Of course it was. May the best man win. 

MaroonBells wrote:

I think the idea is to give yourself the best chance to win, so if you happen to get a little lucky on the injury front, you can make a run. Yes, it is important to find out whether McCarthy is the guy. We got some info in that regard last season. We’ll get some more info in this year’s training camp and preseason, maybe even the regular season. We’ll see how he does. We all want him to do well. 
It’s even more important to win. See, it’s not just about Justin Jefferson. It’s about Darrisaw and O’Neill. It’s about Addison and Turner and Gink and Cashman and Flores and every other player and coach on the team. It’s about the fans, who’ve earned your best attempt at fielding a winning roster. 
The Vikings obviously felt it was in the best interest of all the above to bring in a veteran QB to compete with McCarthy. It was the right decision. Of course it was. May the best man win.

Everything, and I mean everything, this franchise has done since the firing of Spielman and Zimmer was generated around identifying/drafting a franchise quarterback and building the roster around that player. "Competitive rebuild" ring a bell to anyone? It's how the roster was set up with this plan in place. The whisperer was deferred to and he signed-off on the drafting of McCarthy and his development. It wouldn't be the Vikings if that players development didn't mesh with the timeline of the rest of the roster, but that doesn't mean we just once again pivot to the rent-a-vet cycle that we've done for 30 years now because those results speak for themselves. So yeah, to me, finding out definitively if McCarthy is that guy or not is more important than notching another average season to appease ownership, Jefferson's feelings, OConnell's job, or any other potential reason you can think of.

comet52 wrote:

10 games is some sort of mantra now. You can walk away from a guy whenever you realize he isn't going to work out and the walking away is being done by Kevin O'Connell, which is why fans fighting each other about it seems silly. Or characterizing Kevin's moves as a "temper tantrum." Really? I'm not even a KOC fan but the guy is clearly trying to do what's necessary to win games now. That's what the franchise, the fans and the owners want. To say no, no, no, turn it into an open-ended qb development trial for a kid with very shaky on-field NFL priors, is just not happening in this world.
The one guy in that building who would have insisted on another year of JJM is gone. KAM was pushed out by KOC and Flores because they aren't interested in another year of offensive ineptitude (or KAM's drafting). The internal rifts were resolved when they went to the Wilves who, being in perpetual win-now mode, were an easy sell it seems. They'd just reupped KAM yet were willing to do an awkward late January firing and the whole interim g.m. thing. Then it was time for Kevin to acquire Kyler.
IMO this is all Kevin O'Connell, right down to the competition which is a performance to maintain his rep as a good guy, qb whispererer, Mr. Organizations Fail Young Quarterbacks didn't fail JJM, etc.
But for me, I don't care that it all happened. I'm not angry that JJM won't get his chance. Well maybe if Murray and Wentz both go down and he isn't traded he'll get back on the field. I hoped he'd work out but I was really doubtful when I looked at his college tape before we drafted him. Constant fastballs into tight windows that won't work in the NFL. A run heavy offense where he wasn't asked to throw a lot, with a great HC/surround. He did look good in hurry up in the national semi in the RoseBowl, so I had a little hope. But IMO he was overdrafted.
Picking a guy with his limitations at #10 (and honestly the 5th qb off the board) just put way too many expectations on him. He's shown a lack of maturity, inability to make certain throws, inaccuracy, a tendency to turn everything into a fastball, and most concerning, inability to process at speed in the pocket. He does do well in 2 minute drill. But so did Kyle Sloter. It's the other 58 minutes that are the problem.
Could he overcome all this and maybe be a backup someday? Sure. But the Vikings and NFL teams in general aren't running QB development camps, they are looking to win games now. Guys drafted lower can walk that path more easily because they don't come into the league and face big, early failures that mess with their heads. He should have been drafted late 2nd/early 3rd.
Kyler Murray is a highly talented guy who's thrown for over 20k yards and 120 tds for an organization that can charitably be called "dogshit", with bottom 5-epa level defenses the entire time. If Flores' D holds up and Murray's health does the same, this team that won 9 games with mostly crap QB play should win 12 games (or more). If the Vikings are going to find some magical top-5 level franchise QB, then Nolan Teasley is going to have to draft that guy in 2027 or beyond. Hope and cope all you want but JJ McCarthy ain't gonna be that guy. Sorry!! 😆

One thing I want to add and then I will shut up and go away. The absolute worst possible scenario, and probably the most likely, is that Kyler Murray plays just ok. He isn't fantastic and he isn't terrible. But he hangs around, takes the Vikings to say 10-7, maybe a 1st round playoff bounce. Lets say 3200 yards 24 TD's with 17 INT's. It's the end of the season and he is a free agent. Now he wants 45-55 mil a year over 4 years. With the ghost of Sammy D hanging over your head, now what do you do? You still don't know what you have with JJM. You are good enough to not be able to draft one of the hot shot rookies. All your choices are not good. The Vikings will have put themselves right back in to, or probably an even worse, situation then they had going in to this season.

Break the cycle. PLEASE break the cycle.

Vikesrock wrote:

One thing I want to add and then I will shut up and go away. The absolute worst possible scenario, and probably the most likely, is that Kyler Murray plays just ok. He isn't fantastic and he isn't terrible. But he hangs around, takes the Vikings to say 10-7, maybe a 1st round playoff bounce. Lets say 3200 yards 24 TD's with 17 INT's. It's the end of the season and he is a free agent. Now he wants 45-55 mil a year over 4 years. With the ghost of Sammy D hanging over your head, now what do you do? You still don't know what you have with JJM. You are good enough to not be able to draft one of the hot shot rookies. All your choices are not good. The Vikings will have put themselves right back in to, or probably an even worse, situation then they had going in to this season.
Break the cycle. PLEASE break the cycle.

In that case you take a QB in the 1st round of the 2027 draft. What’s the worst-case scenario if we had not brought in Kyler at all? JJ shows he’s not the guy, and in that case you draft a QB in the 1st round of the 2027 draft. Not sure why this is such a source of befuddlement for some. 

Personally, I think if Kyler wins the job and stays healthy, everyone is going to be very happy with the results. Teams with this much talent on offense are not often gifted with a QB of this caliber at ANY cost, let alone $1.3M. 

Vikesrock wrote:

One thing I want to add and then I will shut up and go away. The absolute worst possible scenario, and probably the most likely, is that Kyler Murray plays just ok. He isn't fantastic and he isn't terrible. But he hangs around, takes the Vikings to say 10-7, maybe a 1st round playoff bounce. Lets say 3200 yards 24 TD's with 17 INT's. It's the end of the season and he is a free agent. Now he wants 45-55 mil a year over 4 years. With the ghost of Sammy D hanging over your head, now what do you do? You still don't know what you have with JJM. You are good enough to not be able to draft one of the hot shot rookies. All your choices are not good. The Vikings will have put themselves right back in to, or probably an even worse, situation then they had going in to this season.
Break the cycle. PLEASE break the cycle.

This is what I fear will play out

MaroonBells wrote:

Personally, I think if Kyler wins the job and stays healthy, everyone is going to be very happy with the results. Teams with this much talent on offense are not often gifted with a QB of this caliber at ANY cost, let alone $1.3M.

I want to have a fun year. JJ, at this moment, seems to need another year with his thinking and decisions. I wish I were to see Murray interacting more with his players on the field. Get excited and make your teammate know you appreciate a good play. I know that is not him, but I think that is the leader that is needed. I think 2026 could be a lighting in a bottle year but just doesn't have the 09 feel. I want to see him in a preseason game.

JJ is doing things better than Murray as well. It is just not being talked about. I think JJ is commanding the line better. Murray is better at just playing ball and throwing without thinking. He just plays. Doesn't seem to have a care either way, which can be a good thing and bad thing. JJ would benefit from VR time with those things. Not a huge fan of that approach, but I feel JJ would benefit a lot with his hesitation to throw the football.

Canthony wrote:

I want to have a fun year. JJ, at this moment, seems to need another year with his thinking and decisions. I wish I were to see Murray interacting more with his players on the field. Get excited and make your teammate know you appreciate a good play. I know that is not him, but I think that is the leader that is needed. I think 2026 could be a lighting in a bottle year but just doesn't have the 09 feel. I want to see him in a preseason game.

JJ is doing things better than Murray as well. It is just not being talked about. I think JJ is commanding the line better. Murray is better at just playing ball and throwing without thinking. He just plays. Doesn't seem to have a care either way, which can be a good thing and bad thing. JJ would benefit from VR time with those things. Not a huge fan of that approach, but I feel JJ would benefit a lot with his hesitation to throw the football.

I think K1 is a bit more of an introvert, but dont know that for sure...I suspect that as the season goes on, he would be a bit more "openly effusive"

I know exactly the issue with JJ slower processing...

MaroonBells wrote:

In that case you take a QB in the 1st round of the 2027 draft. What’s the worst-case scenario if we had not brought in Kyler at all? JJ shows he’s not the guy, and in that case you draft a QB in the 1st round of the 2027 draft. Not sure why this is such a source of befuddlement for some. 
Personally, I think if Kyler wins the job and stays healthy, everyone is going to be very happy with the results. Teams with this much talent on offense are not often gifted with a QB of this caliber at ANY cost, let alone $1.3M.

Sorry, just one more. It's not so easy to just "draft a guy in the first round" that we want. As attributed to the Drake Maye scenario. The idea here would be you fall far enough on your face that you are in play for one of the top 6 or 7 guys. Not drafting again from 19-23 where you are just out of range and it either costs you your 1st born to move up, or everyone is telling you to pound sand because you don't have enough.

Maybe failing to that level is not even possible with Flores and the defensive players he has. This is exactly why the "competitive rebuild" crap is stupid. At some point you have to tear it down to build it back up. We are always just a QB away from winning it all....or not.

TBH, I hope you are 100% correct. I hope Kyler balls out and wins the MVP. I am first and foremost a Vikings fan. Not a JJM fan or any one player. If Kyler does that, next year is easy. Back up the Brinks truck and pay that man his money (Said like Teddy KGB). But if history is a predictor of the future, the scenario I laid out above is the most likely and we are scratching our heads again trying to figure out what to do again net year.

Vikesrock wrote:

Sorry, just one more. It's not so easy to just "draft a guy in the first round" that we want. As attributed to the Drake Maye scenario. The idea here would be you fall far enough on your face that you are in play for one of the top 6 or 7 guys. Not drafting again from 19-23 where you are just out of range and it either costs you your 1st born to move up, or everyone is telling you to pound sand because you don't have enough.
Maybe failing to that level is not even possible with Flores and the defensive players he has. This is exactly why the "competitive rebuild" crap is stupid. At some point you have to tear it down to build it back up. We are always just a QB away from winning it all....or not.
TBH, I hope you are 100% correct. I hope Kyler balls out and wins the MVP. I am first and foremost a Vikings fan. Not a JJM fan or any one player. If he does that, next year is easy. Back up the Brinks truck and pay that man his money (Said like Teddy KGB). But if history is a predictor of the future, the scenario I laid out above is the most likely and we are scratching our heads again trying to figure out what to do again net year.

If JJ is the backup this year, and if they keep him as QB2, I think 2027 would be the year for JJM. If they don't view him as a QB that they want for the future, they will trade him to the highest bidder. If they do, they will keep him as QB2 and will set up for 2027. Just my thoughts anyways.

Vikesrock wrote:

One thing I want to add and then I will shut up and go away. The absolute worst possible scenario, and probably the most likely, is that Kyler Murray plays just ok. He isn't fantastic and he isn't terrible. But he hangs around, takes the Vikings to say 10-7, maybe a 1st round playoff bounce. Lets say 3200 yards 24 TD's with 17 INT's. It's the end of the season and he is a free agent. Now he wants 45-55 mil a year over 4 years. With the ghost of Sammy D hanging over your head, now what do you do? You still don't know what you have with JJM. You are good enough to not be able to draft one of the hot shot rookies. All your choices are not good. The Vikings will have put themselves right back in to, or probably an even worse, situation then they had going in to this season.
Break the cycle. PLEASE break the cycle.

I'm not getting why you think a middling record is most likely. 24/17 td int for a guy who's historic rate is 2-1... probably in this offense he can get it to 3-1 with a good year. 30/10 would be more likely imho.

Yes, the middling scenario would be hard, hard for Nolan Teasley. I'm sure he'll relish the opportunity to build this thing his way regardless. I see him drafting a qb one way or another in the next 1-3 years.

As far as "breaking the cycle", if they happen to win a title this year there isn't any more cycle. And the league has evolved since qb's started being wildly overdrafted 20 or so years ago. In no way are Sam D. or Jalen Hurts top 10 qbs, but they just won the last two titles. Defenses have evolved and adjusted to all the pass happy rulemaking, changes in how to hit guys, etc. And there is a second tier of qbs like Sam who are playing on reduced salaries, which could apply to Kyler, certainly in that 10-7 scenario you mentioned. Obsessively hoping for a top 5 QB and a dynasty is fine, but it's like buying lottery tickets every day and being pissed when you don't win. There are other ways to get to the goal, the team just needs to start drafting well. Hopefully this year was the beginning.

I think Viking fans are just overwrought with worry right now for whatever reason. Personally I feel more optimistic than usual about an upcoming season. I'm assuming oline injuries will regress to the mean and guys in year 2 off lower body surgery will improve. A loaded offense will do better than last year's mess with competent qb play and a better run game. And Flores will continue to be one of if not the best DCs in the game, now with a set of rookies he was handed in the draft to try to run with. The team doesn't need a superstar hero cycle breaker at QB, just a guy who can distribute and make the most of his chances.

And as a fan I'd rather look forward to real football and seeing what we can do than spend my time soaking a towel over JJ McCarthy's fate. JMO.

Vikesrock wrote:

Sorry, just one more. It's not so easy to just "draft a guy in the first round" that we want. As attributed to the Drake Maye scenario. The idea here would be you fall far enough on your face that you are in play for one of the top 6 or 7 guys. Not drafting again from 19-23 where you are just out of range and it either costs you your 1st born to move up, or everyone is telling you to pound sand because you don't have enough.
Maybe failing to that level is not even possible with Flores and the defensive players he has. This is exactly why the "competitive rebuild" crap is stupid. At some point you have to tear it down to build it back up. We are always just a QB away from winning it all....or not.
TBH, I hope you are 100% correct. I hope Kyler balls out and wins the MVP. I am first and foremost a Vikings fan. Not a JJM fan or any one player. If Kyler does that, next year is easy. Back up the Brinks truck and pay that man his money (Said like Teddy KGB). But if history is a predictor of the future, the scenario I laid out above is the most likely and we are scratching our heads again trying to figure out what to do again net year.

This is the biggest myth in football. Who are all these teams who tore it all down to build it back up, then won a Super Bowl within a few years.

MaroonBells wrote:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not advocating "walking away" from McCarthy. I agree, it's too soon for that. As you say (and I've said many times), he's had only 10 starts and missed his rookie season. There are legitimate reasons to think he can still develop into the guy we want him to be. That's why he's still on the roster and why he's still in the running to be QB1. Bringing in a veteran to compete with him is not "walking away" from JJ.

Hell, JJ still under his rookie contract...let that run out and see how he has progressed. If he doesn't make it by then...that's when you walk away...

MaroonBells wrote:

This is the biggest myth in football. Who are all these teams who tore it all down to build it back up, then won a Super Bowl within a few years.

That is an absolute loaded question. Typically you can't destroy a team by blowing it up and win a SB within a few years. Just can't happen. Look at Arizona right now. They dropped a nuke on Dignity Health and it is going to take a whole lot longer than a few years to be relevant. IMO. Also, how is the organization ran? How is the leadership? Many factors go into that question.

So in terms of if you can, there in no right answer. The best answer for me is, you typically can't and expect to be relevant within any short amount of time.

MaroonBells wrote:

This is the biggest myth in football. Who are all these teams who tore it all down to build it back up, then won a Super Bowl within a few years.

The suggestion of tearing it down when all you are missing is competent QB play is incomprehensible anyway.

I don’t really believe in tearing it down to the studs and rebuilding. I think it’s hard enough to build a talented roster as it is, and it’s even harder with a fully depleted roster. I do believe that in general teams should try to focus on a window, where you manage your cap dollars such that you are spending the most money during that window, then at some point when the cap is becoming restrictive you take a year or two off from being competitive and get right cap-wise to prepare for the next window. Before the window, you focus on the draft and getting talent for cheap. Save your cap dollars until you are ready to compete, then once you are in your window, spend a lot of present and future cap dollars so your team has the most amount of talent on the field at once. At some point you’ll have to pay your cap sins, and you try to lump it into as few years as possible.

I think the 49ers were a pretty good example of that strategy. They were going hard for a while, had that tough year following the SB loss where the team was in a funk, and jettisoned some guys and did a little mini-rebuild in a year that they weren’t really going to be competitive anyway. Didn’t really result in a SB win, but doing things right doesn’t guarantee that.

I think the last thing you really want to be doing is spending a ton of future cap money on years where you aren’t really going to be competitive anyway, because you’ll already be in cap hell when the time comes.

Regarding bad teams like AZ or NYJ. I think we generally associate rebuilding with becoming that bad, getting a top pick, drafting a QB, and then just becoming good. I just don’t think that’s how it works. Bad teams are bad because the whole organization is bad. They draft bad players. They don’t coach up players. They manage the cap wrong. Good teams are too good to get that bad unless they hit the injury lottery and everyones injured at the same time. They’re too good at developing players. Maybe the GM misses on a player, but the coaches get him playing pretty decently anyway.

Similarly, I don’t think the bad teams being perpetually bad really means that a good team having a bad year is going to doom them into being bad for a long time.

JustInTime wrote:

It’s in the Justin Jefferson is good at football thread.

You made that assumption, I never said anything of the sort. I didn't respond because you'll just make this a big pissing match like you do with everyone that has a different opinion than you.

I was implying that our offensive dysfunction and Jefferson's down year had more to do with constant shuffling along the OL with all the injuries, only 85 snaps with our starting 5 OL all season, and then biggest factor being we couldn't keep our starting QB and veteran backup on the field for more than 6 consecutive starts. It was JJM for 2, Wentz for 6 until he broke, then JJM for a couple before a concussion, then Brosmer, and back to JJM.

I think all that likely had more to do with Jefferson having a down year than your opinion that JJ McCarthy is terrible and will always be terrible.

Show me where I said JJ will always be terrible.

My “pissing” matches are usually with one person who routinely fabricates utter bull shit or regurgitates disproven rumors.

You blamed JJ’s issues on Jefferson not being in camp. I guess I should have drawn a different conclusion from that?

Hokay